All the Problems with Complementarianism in a Nutshell--And How They Try to Make it Sound Pretty
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It's episode 305 of Bare Marriage! Complementarians use a lot of really nice-sounding words to describe their beliefs about gender roles, but when you actually break down what they mean, they're not talking about roles at all—they're talking about hierarchy. In this episode, Keith and I decode all the euphemisms like "different roles," "servant leadership," and "his headship is for your protection" to show what complementarians are really saying: that men should be in authority over women. The problem is, when you actually implement these beliefs in marriage, we see relationships struggle—and the statistics bear that out. And we work directly against the gospel, putting the husband in the place of Jesus.
**THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSOR**
Order Dorothy Greco's book For the Love of Women which launched this week!
https://amzn.to/4oEAuPL
Or more places to buy it: https://dorothygreco.com
**TO SUPPORT US**
Join our Patreon for as little as $5 a month to support our work
https://patreon.com/baremarriage
Donate through the Good Fruit Faith Initiative of the Bosko Foundation:
https://baremarriage.com/give-through-bosko/
And check out our Merch, or any of our courses!
https://sheilawraygregoire.com/shop/
SIGN UP for our weekly emails--Rebecca writes them, and they're amazing!
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**LINKS MENTIONED**
"The Marriage You Want" book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/4o71BC6
Get the curriculum and video series from Baker Books: https://bakerbookhouse.com/pages/sheila-wray-gregoire
"The Bible vs. Biblical Womanhood" by Philip Payne: https://amzn.to/48tDo3p
"How God Sees Women" by Terran Williams: https://amzn.to/3X62TlS
Rebecca Groothuis essay on "Equal in Being, Unequal in Function": https://christianethicstoday.com/wp/equal-in-being-unequa…
Previous podcast episode on John Piper's "harsh husband" advice: https://baremarriage.com/2022/06/podcast-why-john-piper-s…
**TIMELINE**
00:00 Intro to Complementarianism & what we'll address
03:39 "Equal Value, Different Roles" - Why This Makes No Sense
16:16 What do Complementarians Really Think About Gender Differences?
27:21 Matt Chandler's False Spectrum Between Patriarchy and Egalitarianism
30:51 "Servant Leadership" - Which Word Matters More?
37:15 What Does Submission Actually Mean in Practice?
44:41 The "Burden" of Making Final Decisions
51:01 Is Marriage Really a Picture of Christ and the Church?
54:55 "His Headship is for Your Protection" - Really?
1:02:01 The Two-Headed Monster Myth & Closing Thoughts
**THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSOR**
Order Dorothy Greco's book For the Love of Women which launched this week!
https://amzn.to/4oEAuPL
Or more places to buy it: https://dorothygreco.com
**TO SUPPORT US**
Join our Patreon for as little as $5 a month to support our work
https://patreon.com/baremarriage
Donate through the Good Fruit Faith Initiative of the Bosko Foundation:
https://baremarriage.com/give-through-bosko/
And check out our Merch, or any of our courses!
https://sheilawraygregoire.com/shop/
SIGN UP for our weekly emails--Rebecca writes them, and they're amazing!
https://baremarriage.com/join-the-newsletter/
**LINKS MENTIONED**
"The Marriage You Want" book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/4o71BC6
Get the curriculum and video series from Baker Books: https://bakerbookhouse.com/pages/sheila-wray-gregoire
"The Bible vs. Biblical Womanhood" by Philip Payne: https://amzn.to/48tDo3p
"How God Sees Women" by Terran Williams: https://amzn.to/3X62TlS
Rebecca Groothuis essay on "Equal in Being, Unequal in Function": https://christianethicstoday.com/wp/equal-in-being-unequa…
Previous podcast episode on John Piper's "harsh husband" advice: https://baremarriage.com/2022/06/podcast-why-john-piper-s…
**TIMELINE**
00:00 Intro to Complementarianism & what we'll address
03:39 "Equal Value, Different Roles" - Why This Makes No Sense
16:16 What do Complementarians Really Think About Gender Differences?
27:21 Matt Chandler's False Spectrum Between Patriarchy and Egalitarianism
30:51 "Servant Leadership" - Which Word Matters More?
37:15 What Does Submission Actually Mean in Practice?
44:41 The "Burden" of Making Final Decisions
51:01 Is Marriage Really a Picture of Christ and the Church?
54:55 "His Headship is for Your Protection" - Really?
1:02:01 The Two-Headed Monster Myth & Closing Thoughts
@laura69253
THIS!!! The whole part about the "spiritual protection" is what I was taught for years. And when questioned the answer was always, that's just the way God wants it and set it up. No examination of whether or not it actually makes sense theologically. Keep up the good work Sheila and Keith!
30 likes
@rebagail4989
🤯 Would a CEO tell their employees ... you must always obey your own supervisor, BUT you must THINK about how to help your "IDIOT" supervisor, because that's what you're there for - they need you to THINK for them!...??? And whenever your supervisor tells you to do something that you think I would'nt want you to do, you have a responsibility to disregard those instructions. No, your supervisor won't get fired, and yes you will face whatever punishment he thinks you deserve for not obeying him, but you have to decide what you think I will want from you, regardless of what he does or says, and yet you will get in trouble for disobeying him if he thinks you're wrong.
🤯🤯🤯
What a load of crap coming from Josh McPherson.
25 likes
@danwatterworththerapy9250
This was very well done, Sheila and Keith! Great job!
8 likes
@cherisallee7245
I am pleased that Paul said he knew no one like Timothy, who was raised and taught the Scriptures by his mother and grandmother. Umbrella free
5 likes
@britta4187
Loved loved loved this episode!!! So well done!!
7 likes
@llelujah
Modern psychology and neuroscience consistently show, across decades of peer-reviewed research, that men and women are more alike than different. That doesn’t mean we don’t have differences - we certainly do! And our differences should be celebrated! It DOES mean we are not from two different planets like so many people suggest! Across intelligence, emotion, self-control, empathy, reactivity, and even sexual desire, the bell curves almost completely overlap. Average differences, where they exist, are small and statistical- not categorical. In fact, there is far more variation within each sex than between the two. This means there is substantial overlap, with many men showing greater emotional sensitivity than many women, and many women showing lower emotional reactivity than many men, and levels of sexual desire span a wide range in both sexes with no meaningful separation. Claims that men are inherently more rational, controlled, or driven- or that women are inherently more emotional, reactive, or less disciplined- are not supported by the evidence. These ideas come far more from culture and socialization than from biology.
5 likes
@Meg-v5q5o
I’m reading The Way of Kings now! I did a triple take at that part! 🤣
8 likes
@Elishamagraley
Thankyou my darlings for all this incredibly hard work ❤❤.
5 likes
@JennySchmitz-u2g
The only way they can become more like Jesus is to tell them to serve more. #micdrop Thank you both for making me laugh and for your balanced and logical ways of explaining this mystery.
15 likes
@123kapul
The quote around the 17:00 minute mark from Piper/Gruden sounds like a description of "noblesse oblige" and "divine right", when historically people would try to lord it over others through claiming God's command or claiming to be gods. Persian, Greek, and Roman emperors claimed deity, while English kings and queens claimed command. This traditionalist quote sounds like colonialism rebranded.
7 likes
@ArtistLynneGenevieve
The thing about "isn't it beautiful that she submits" even to an abusive husband -- when the husband is abusive (mentally, emotionally, financially, etc) that is no longer a picture of Christ and the church! Unless they believe that Christ is a cruel harsh egotistical emotionally immature type task master.
Also, they like to emphasize the submission of women "like Christ and the church" and putting the husbands in the place of Christ. But where are men IN the church/Christ dynamic. They are IN the church! They should be submitting to Jesus. Once you see how they always angle their teachings so that the husband is always the one in hierarchical authority and the wife is always in the place of submission. In Jesus we see him submitting to the father AND being the head of the church. But women are only told that they should be like Christ when he submits while men are being taught to be like Christ when he is being the head.
10 likes
@Disciple62
This was so good!!
@Deborah-d8t
Subscribed here. Thanks for this wonderful video. Re affirmed about what I studied last two years on how Christ is for women. I think I'll be trying a different Church this weekend. 😉
2 likes
@jennriedy6626
Hey, I’m the first “like” this week!!!
6 likes
@Disciple62
Rebeca’s article is excellent. I encourage everyone to read it.
@llelujah
Paul writes that “he became all things to all people.” He honored the structure of the time because people were watching the Christians very closely, and suspicious that they were trying to cause disorder in society. We know we don’t “have” to circumcise either but Paul still had Timothy circumcised. Women don’t have to cover their heads today. You don’t see our society “sharing all things with everyone so nobody was lacking anything” either - the capitalists would hard pass on that one. The same way missionaries today honor the dress and the customs of the territories they enter today. We want to reach hearts with the gospel, not offend and cause disorder, that’ll get people thrown in jail or killed. Paul wasn’t giving us a an eternal prescription of hierarchy. He was discerning how the eternal gospel should be embodied faithfully within specific cultural and social realities. Paul intentionally works within existing structures in order to transform them from the inside. Paul talks about the Roman household codes and subverts them, flips them on their head from within. He encourages women’s agency in a way that was unheard of in that time. Men, don’t dominate your wives - serve them, wash feet. People try to claim creation order to prove hierarchy but the truth is that at creation, women were given equal authority. When Paul teaches that Adam was created first and then Eve, and that she was a transgressor - he is correcting a proto-gnostic belief that was going around where some people were teaching that Eve was the first enlightened one, that women had all knowledge and wisdom. Paul was saying, actually the real story is that Adam was created first, and yes women can make mistakes too, after all Eve was deceived. He wasn’t setting women below man, he was bringing an elevated view back to reality - the reality that we are all equal, and man nor woman is more wise or knowledgeable than the other because of their biological sex. Paul’s own theological baseline is that all are one in Christ and that spiritual authority is not determined by sex, race, ethnicity, etc.
3 likes
@plarsen2654
Great explanation! Thanks
@Disciple62
This is very helpful
@Lalalife1111
I was debating this topic with a woman and said that my husband and I submit to one another and she told me that’s ridiculous and that her husband DOES NOT SUBMIT TO HER and that’s like saying Jesus submits to the church! 🤔
5 likes
@0hAHGahmi
lol Did I clock a 'Princess Bride' Inego Montoya thing at 50:00 ish?
6 likes